Impossible to lead people without caring
Robert Marsalis (60) has always had a drive to understand life, himself and other people. With a master's degree in theology, he nevertheless ended up as a leadership developer. Is it possible to be a good leader without loving people?
By Rita Tvede Bartolomei
- "Management is a profession where you really have to care about other people. At least if you're going to be a good leader," says Robert, who is originally from Minneapolis in the US, but has lived in Norway for over 30 years.
Since 2021, he has been a leadership developer for FRONT Leadership.
From theology to safety management
Although Robert has a five-year degree in theology (he chose not to be ordained as a priest), it is leadership development and management that he has worked with the most. Between 1995 and 2006, he worked in safety management at Det Norske Veritas (DNV). In 2006, he was invited to join a new working group of internal consultants.
- We were to work specifically with leadership development in a newly established department. I felt exactly the same feelings that new managers feel. It was a bit scary, because it wasn't something I had actively applied for: What exactly am I going to do?" he says.
After a few years, Robert became head of the entire department. A department that provided training, leadership and team development, and eventually also individual coaching.
- But being a manager is completely different from working with leadership development. That's why I'm very grateful and happy to have both experiences," he says.
"Any experience with other people is very useful to become a better leader"
Learned more about people as a hospital chaplain
Robert Marsalis says that he grew up in a religious, Protestant family. This influenced his choice of education.
- The fact that I spent several years studying theology also had to do with the fact that I've always had a drive to understand life and to understand more about being human. I've always been interested in the big questions. Now, at the age of 60, I still am, but I no longer go to church to find the answers," he says.
Although Robert did not end up as a priest, he experienced several powerful human encounters when he was a young man practicing as a hospital chaplain in Minneapolis. The experience gave him better insight into people. And better insight into himself.
- During this period, I got to meet people in many different life situations, such as patients, bereaved relatives and next of kin. It gave me a ballast, because I learned so much from the conversations we had. I had to think about what happened between us when we talked, what happened to them and what happened inside me," he explains.
Good leaders (and good priests) must be able to listen
Some of Robert's most powerful encounters were with patients who had major mental health problems and were in a closed ward. He had thoughts (he calls them preconceptions) about what these people were like. But not everything turned out to be true.
- "It's hard to put into words what this did to me, but I probably learned better to see a person for what he or she really is. In this case, it was the person behind the disease," he says.
Although the experience he gained is not directly transferable to leadership development, it was of great value
- All experience with other people, listening and understanding, is very useful to become a better leader. As a hospital chaplain, I didn't have all the answers and I wasn't treating them. But the fact that the patients felt that someone listened to them and was there was a value in itself. It's many decades ago now, but I still picture some of the individuals," he says thoughtfully.
The goal is to create safe leaders
Belief in people permeates Robert Marsalis' leadership development philosophy. He is also not so much concerned with short-term goals, but with the results that are achieved over time.
- "It's very important to me that the people I'll be working with get to experience growth as leaders and people. That they gain more confidence in themselves and become confident in their role. My job is to help them gain knowledge about what they need to do to become better leaders," he says.
Because while attending intense, short-term leadership courses can be an experience and inspiration, it's FRONT's philosophy of development and learning over time that Robert knows works best.
- With small drip-feeds incorporated into everyday work life, managers have time to learn over time. "It still requires a lot of effort from managers, because they have to be interested in getting better in their leadership role. Not least, they need to really reflect on the experiences and lessons they've learned," he says.
In addition to strongly agreeing with FRONT's methodology, which he sees works for managers, he finds it rewarding to be part of such a committed group of colleagues.
- We support each other and learn a lot from each other, and have many good conversations. I can confirm that all of us who work with leadership development at FRONT Leadership care deeply about creating a program that really works. That we actually help the leaders. Quite simply, that what we do makes a difference to the people we work with," he says enthusiastically.
"The goal is not to bring out the most, but the best in your employees"
The best - not the most
As well as having a genuine interest in other people. What else does it take to be a good leader?
- You need to have a direction you're heading in and ask yourself the question: Where do I want to go? You need to engage your employees in the direction and bring out the best in those you lead," he says.
In fact, "the best" is the key word:
- The goal is not to bring out the most, but the best in your employees. Getting everyone pulling in the right direction. Best performance doesn't mean whipping people
to work harder. When people are afraid and don't feel valued, they don't work well," he says.
Managers can whip and threaten employees into doing a task. But can the whip get them to be engaged, dedicated, perform above and beyond - to be creative and motivated?
- No, you can't do that with that kind of leadership. In English, we have a saying that applies here: "If you demand compliance, you get defiance". When you demand that people "submit" and command them, they resist and you don't get good results. That doesn't mean that no one should follow the rules, but force and whip never work well," says the leadership developer.
Flat structure brings its own challenges
In Robert's experience, a company's management culture strongly influences how managers treat their employees. In addition, managers are often subject specialists who know a lot about what they do. However, their profession does not make them good managers.
- "Management is a separate subject. Working with people and working with the subject are in no way comparable," he says.
Poor leadership does not occur more often in large companies than in small ones, nor does Robert Marsalis believe that Norway stands out with more good (or worse) leaders. Nevertheless, Norwegian managers have their own unique set of challenges.
- Many workplaces in Norway have a flat management structure. The advantage is that there is less of the hierarchical control-freak behavior. But the downside is that many managers are afraid to have the difficult conversation. Fear of creating conflict means that many fail to be clear. However, clarity is not the same as being aggressive and authoritarian," he says.
Empathy and admiration for leaders
Many of the challenges faced by managers vary from company to company, and from manager to manager. But the main issue is really always how leaders treat the people around them.
- We humans are complicated, and can be wonderful and charming, but also challenging. People are often both irrational and rational, and managers must be able to both support and challenge their employees. Often it seems
managers that this is the hardest part: Getting the best out of people. But it's also what managers are most hungry to achieve," says Robert.
Precisely because (good) leadership is so demanding, the leadership developer expresses a lot of empathy for leaders.
- I admire leaders. They take on a responsibility, and often without much training. It's very demanding and challenging. So it makes me very happy to see how managers experience mastery and become better leaders by gaining insight and a concrete way of working. When I see that they experience progress. Yes, it gives me a good feeling in my heart," says Robert.
